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Nov. 14th, 2005 @ 11:58 am four is the loneliest number
This looks like a fun situation to dissect a little ways.

First, a summary of the salient facts. I began a thread on 2+2 which grew to 50+ posts before the entire thread was summarily deleted by mat sklansky. I was then contacted via private message by mason malmuth, who pronounced that if I did not apologize both privately and publicly I would no longer be allowed to post at 2+2. After I posted a less than completely sincere apology that included a reference to the hitler youth, mason "permanently" banned me. When the situation attracted sufficient negative attention they decided to hold a poll about whether or not I should be reinstated. The voters called for unbanning by about an 80/20 margin, so unbanned I was. My original post and mason's message are included in this earlier entry. Also of historical interest are the 300+ post apology thread and the poll regarding reinstatement. There are numerous other threads that touch on the banning that you can read if you are possessed of sufficient masochism. Most or all of these threads have been locked; the moderator says the issue is resolved so it must be true.

I have some thoughts.

1) It has always been a condition of my participation at 2+2 that none of my posts be deleted. I have asserted this several times publicly and privately, and I had reiterated it again in the post that began the deleted thread. The charming crowd that looks to infer the ugliest possible motivation for everything I do viewed that assertion as some kind of self-aggrandizing "look how important I am" threat. In reality it was born solely of a sincere desire to avoid this exact situation. I knew without uncertainty that if one of my posts was ever deleted I would be done with 2+2: there would be no second chances. Given that, I thought it worthwhile to at least try to make the moderator think a little harder before hitting the big red button. No such luck, but it's hard to claim I didn't make the effort.

I put some effort into my writing. It may not always be brilliant but that doesn't mean I don't value it all. At 2+2 the value of my writing is so low that it can be capriciously deleted without warning or explanation at any time. As long as that was only hypothetical I was willing to fade it, but no longer. It'd be like voluntarily resuming an abusive relationship. And let's not forget about the 50+ other posts that were deleted along with my opening post, posts whose only crime was proximity. Look at how casually they irreversibly deleted posts from a couple dozen different people. Either they don't mind losing a couple dozen posters all at once, or they don't think people care if their posts are deleted for no reason. In either case they prove themselves completely unfit to operate a forum. It's hard to imagine how mason thought that my participation there was so valuable to me that I'd grovel before him. Who does he think gets more out of the deal when I post there, them or me?

2) The younger sklansky explains his reasoning here. I don't see any reason to disbelieve his version, which is damning enough unvarnished. What kind of person is mason malmuth? He's the sort to send a demand for apologies both public and private based on a post he had never seen. When the actual content of the offending post comes to light and it is obvious that they wildly overreacted, rather than simply unban me he hides behind a poll whose outcome was never in doubt. And he's the sort of person who despite being quick to demand apologies for an imagined wrong, offers none himself for a genuine one.

I wonder how this situation would have played out if someone had not saved a copy of my original post. Just imagine how mason would have behaved had I not been able to produce it. He'd be authoritatively assuring everyone that I was banned deservedly, based on the content of a post he had never seen.

3) As I predicted privately, certain 2+2 revisionists wasted no time in acting like I was banned because I made a nazi reference. When I started mentioning nazis my days at 2+2 were already over and I was just having some fun with my last couple comments. The thing is, nazis are funny. If you can watch "springtime for hitler" in the producers and not piss yourself laughing then I question the development of your sense of humor. Anyone who has been around the net for more than a day or two should know what nazi comparisons mean: nothing. It was quite hilarious seeing people deconstruct my comment as if I were a prosecutor at nuremberg trying mason malmuth for war crimes. Addressing a ridiculous nazi comparison in earnest makes you look like you just opened your AOL account yesterday.

Also, I should mention that "and the rest of the hitler youth" is a movie reference. I guess it's asking too much to expect everyone to recognize it as such but happily at least one person did. Kids these days! That movie should be on the mandatory memorization list.

4) I have never made any secret of the fact that I delete comments and ban people from my blog, so naturally people who wander through life contextually challenged claim this makes me a hypocrite. Let's see how many differences I can think of:

* I don't make any pretense of (or at all aspire to) running a forum. This is my personal blog. If a comment in my blog isn't valuable to me personally then I might delete it and ban the poster. The fact that others might find the posted comments of interest is purely incidental. I've been clear about this from day one.
* When I delete posts and ban people you don't hear about it. I just remove the noise and move on. I feel safe in saying nobody misses the people I've banned. The only impact is a less noisy blog.
* I take deletion seriously. I don't do it figuring if I'm overzealous I can claim a mistake and everything will be better. I know what a burned bridge looks like.
* I don't at all begrudge 2+2 the right to delete posts and ban users. I do think people have a right to know what rules (or lack thereof) apply there so they can make their own decisions about whether to patronize 2+2. Remember that they make money by selling advertising that piggybacks on your words. As a poster there you provide them with free content to sell. Do you think they deserve it?

5) Here is a good summary of what you can expect at 2+2.

Mason: It is our policy at Two Plus Two to hold other writers to higher standards, that policy is now extended to well known public figures in poker such as yourself.
Mat: So I did not feel all that bad deleting this post. Keep in mind, however, that had I realized before I deleted the post that I was deleting "THE Paul Phillips", I would not have.

It is nice to simultaneously be held to both a higher and a lower standard than everyone else. Such well-thought out policy means fair-minded, unobtrusive moderation is a given.
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From:[info]greg_kelley
Date: November 14th, 2005 08:25 pm (UTC)

Where to?

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Paul,

Can I look forward to posts from you on an alternative poker forum? Or is there a possibility of a return to 2+2 now that your "double secret probation" has been lifted?

From:[info]icall
Date: November 14th, 2005 08:40 pm (UTC)

My take...

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Mason is a pompous ass and as far as I'm concerned he shoulders the vast majority of the blame for this whole situation.

It seems to me that Mat Sklansky's version of what happened is probably extremely close to exactly what took place, at least from his perspective. Mat seems like a stand up guy and I give him credit for admitting that the original deletion was a mistake. From what I know of Dynasty on 2+2 he genuinely has the best of intentions whether or not you agree with his often heavy-handed methods of dealing with people.

Anyone waiting for Mason to admit he was wrong, or even that he made a mistake anywhere along the way, doesn't have a lot of experience with Mr. Malmuth. The thought of him apologizing is laughable.
From:[info]easy_ee
Date: November 14th, 2005 08:44 pm (UTC)

MM apologies

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"Anyone waiting for Mason to admit he was wrong, or even that he made a mistake anywhere along the way, doesn't have a lot of experience with Mr. Malmuth. The thought of him apologizing is laughable."

I'm trying to remember if Mason has ever apologized, that I would call a true apology. I don't spend a lot of time on all of the forums that he posts in, but none come to mind (I chastised him a few times for things he said, and he didn't retract nor apologize for those).

Anyone with a lot of 2+2 experience have any memory of MM apologizing about any of his mistakes?
From:[info]easy_ee
Date: November 14th, 2005 08:41 pm (UTC)

Nice try, Paul

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For someone whose intent was (to me, at least) to stir up the hornet's nest and insure that he was banned, you sure are spending a lot of time justifying this.

Here's a question for you- if Mason hadn't lashed out with his immediate response, and you'd read that Mat admitted that he'd made a partial mistake (whether he would have deleted your original post anyway still isn't clear)....

..would you have self-banned yourself from 2+2?
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From:[info]extempore
Date: November 14th, 2005 08:56 pm (UTC)

Re: Nice try, Paul

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I didn't say that clearly enough? The moment they deleted my post they insured my departure.
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From:[info]emagnetism
Date: November 14th, 2005 08:45 pm (UTC)

The price of honesty

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You know, I have a weird habit of accepting the words people say at face value, which might be why I generally enjoy your blog as much as I do. What I find most peculiar here is that given your long history of backing up your words "with your feet" (as I recall Negreanu putting it) I am not really sure what Mason and Co. thought they had to gain from unbanning you. At the very least, they could maintain an air of intellectual consistency, even if it were impossibly pig-headed. Now they get to enjoy the "spineless and feckless" description to absolutely no gain over "consistent and stubborn." Not very +EV, to badly plagiarize an already-abused concept.

Secondly, this strongly recalls Ibsen's words about the person who is strongest is he who stands alone (from the highly quotable "The Enemy of the People." I think the fact that you don't particularly need them gives you a lot of strength in this situation, which gave the admins at that site a short list of deplorable options. Honestly, I have found the whole situation darkly amusing, especially given 2+2's really bizarre propensity for hanging themselves and validating your criticisms. At the very least, it has given us some enjoyable posts on your blog.
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From:[info]extempore
Date: November 14th, 2005 09:53 pm (UTC)

Re: The price of honesty

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I am not really sure what Mason and Co. thought they had to gain from unbanning you.

It's an image play. Now they can say "hey, he's not banned, he can post here anytime he likes." That way they're the good guys and I'm just being petty.
From:[info]bigstack90
Date: November 14th, 2005 09:10 pm (UTC)

Loss for 2+2

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It's definitely a loss for 2+2 if you don't post there anymore, I think a lot of people probably just check out 2+2 for posts by you and Fossilman and other pros. Thanks for not putting the word poker in your journal title, my company just started blogging all access to poker related sites. What a bunch of Nazis!
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From:[info]jjharris1978
Date: November 14th, 2005 09:25 pm (UTC)
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* I don't at all begrudge 2+2 the right to delete posts and ban users. I do think people have a right to know what rules (or lack thereof) apply there so they can make their own decisions about whether to patronize 2+2. Remember that they make money by selling advertising that piggybacks on your words. As a poster there you provide them with free content to sell. Do you think they deserve it?

Indeed, they have lost at least one potential advertising revenue stream (small though it would be) through their actions.

It's amazing how poorly this all reflects on them from a business standpoint; are they oblivious to the fact that some people might take umbrage to the stubbornness and lack of discretion in these kinds of matters, or do they just not care?
From:[info]brenthog823
Date: November 14th, 2005 09:25 pm (UTC)

You didn't ask but

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You must be a hoot to be around. Remind me not to get into an argument with you without some kind of 'cinch' response. You could very well go on today being a lawyer, a damn good one.

You didn't ask but, your cool as a fan.
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From:[info]extempore
Date: November 14th, 2005 09:51 pm (UTC)

Re: You didn't ask but

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From:[info]loser_variable
Date: November 14th, 2005 09:27 pm (UTC)

Laugh now, mister

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You *can* say patently offensive things on 2+2 (or at the WSOP). You just can't point out true and obvious evil, because then they can't deny it and can only silence you. You said their software blows. It does. You had to go.

Poster 1: Theory of Poker is deeply flawed. Mason molests woodland creatures. David Sklansky is a subhuman retard.

Sklansky: Please to point out the flaws in ToP as well as your "corrections." Please produce one witness or one fact supporting Mason's alleged molestation of wildlife. There are none. I challenge you to an SAT-taking freezeout for $10,000. Finally, I call upon my unholy army of sycophants to flame you a new one. Do you see why?

Poster 2: Ever notice that Malmuth's natural facial expression looks like he's painfully constipated?

(Somewhere in the distance, an email is sent.)

Dynasty: You are hereby banned from 2+2 for conduct unbecoming an anonymous internet poster.

BTW: The movie reference was too obvious to point out. Also, the AOL joke was a good one.
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From:[info]bdub72
Date: November 15th, 2005 01:25 am (UTC)

Re: Laugh now, mister

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BTW: The movie reference was too obvious to point out.

There are so many that apply.

You're finished...no more Delta.
Son, fat, stubborn and non-self-weighting is no way to go through life.
You can get your thumb out of my ass any time now, Dynasty.



From:[info]acarnevale
Date: November 14th, 2005 09:42 pm (UTC)

re: 2+2 fiasco

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This internecine 'net conflict has provided me with a whole lotta laughter. Thank you for bringing a little light into my life.

Once I started thinking about poker seriously, I naturally went surfing to find a good message-board. Before 2+2 ever heard the phrase "the rest of the Hitler Youth" they were an astonishingly bad place for anyone with a thinking brain.

While Daniel Negreanu's message-board suffers from a lot of donks, your appearance there might bring along a host of smart people, many of whom post on this blog.

I think of your blog as an interesting and neat resource and thank you for updating it with some consistency.
From:[info]krizazy
Date: November 14th, 2005 10:09 pm (UTC)
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I'm curious as to your page view numbers vs. the WPT forum on 2+2. That was the limit to your contributions there, right?
From:[info]sap_pete
Date: November 14th, 2005 10:21 pm (UTC)

Money in the bank

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Thanks for all the money your blog saves me. The other day I saved 1500 bucks by buying a Sharp flat panel tv over the Sony model (see root kit discussion), and now I won't have to think about buying a 2+2 publication again.
From:[info]dougie_nutz
Date: November 14th, 2005 10:55 pm (UTC)

Re: Money in the bank

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That is not likely to save you any money. Unless you make it a policy to borrow a friend's copy instead.
From:[info]tahoemph
Date: November 14th, 2005 10:38 pm (UTC)

edit?

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I assume that if Matt had edited instead of deleted your post the result would have been the same? I'm not sure how Matt would have indicated his edits, but if they were not extremely clear that actually bothers me *more* then just deleting the post.

As far as unbanning FWIR they tried the same "trick" with Abdul. Insult the hell out of him, delete his posts, ban him, and then unban him when he is gone. I think there might have been a few more iterations then with you, but similar MO.
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From:[info]extempore
Date: November 14th, 2005 10:46 pm (UTC)

Re: edit?

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After I found the thread had been deleted I authored a post that said "the moderators can blow me." Dynasty edited that to say "the moderators can [edited by dynasty]." I'd put that in the category of edits I can live with since it's based on their prudish standards of obscenity rather than quashing the message. Edits intended to silence criticism of the moderation (which I guess is what mat had in mind, based on his explanation) would be more than a bit more troublesome.
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From:[info]dmorr
Date: November 14th, 2005 10:54 pm (UTC)
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I've long wondered why you still posted at 2+2. It seemed like an exercise in masochism, not to mention a hopeless waste of time.

Especially given your complaints about free time and all the things you want to do... :)
From:[info]kingmamajama
Date: November 14th, 2005 10:55 pm (UTC)

Poker with Morrie

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I understand Paul's reason for leaving 2+2...I'm just nor sure why everyone didn't leave when David Sklansky decided we all wanted to read about his take on the death penalty [see 2+2 Magazine article which begins, "Since our numbers and our reputation has grown quite large, let's try to flex some political muscle"]. Articles like this point out the appeal of internet poker -- at home you almost never have that lonely, oddly dressed, vaguely dirty guy sitting next to you lean and say, "you know what's wrong with the death penalty?" I think it's time for everyone on 2+2 to do the responsible thing and yell, "TABLE CHANGE!"
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From:[info]dahooch
Date: November 14th, 2005 11:47 pm (UTC)

I liken these developments....

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as shocking as when the Germans invaded Pearl Harbor.....
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From:[info]joepro
Date: November 15th, 2005 02:42 pm (UTC)

Re: I liken these developments....

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Germans?
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From:[info]matt_ruff
Date: November 15th, 2005 12:27 am (UTC)
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Thanks for getting the Animal House theme song stuck in my head.
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From:[info]highroller36
Date: November 15th, 2005 01:53 am (UTC)

Two Plus Two

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I agree that the way that they reacted to Paul's post was completely pathetic. I also understand Paul's decision to never post there again since he feels that he provides more of a service to them by posting than vice-versa (this is probably true). However, to pretend that two plus two is not the best forum on the internet for poker content, as some here are trying to do, is laughable. The strategy forums aren't even in the same league as Negreanu's and others, in terms of both number of replies and quality of responses.

I believe that for most poker players, the information on two plus two is well worth the occasional moderation ineptitude, which shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who knows anything about forums of this size.
From:[info]kennethwilliams
Date: November 15th, 2005 02:25 am (UTC)

Yeah,

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People seem to forget that Animal House featured a young Kevin Bacon.
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From:[info]adb_foldem
Date: November 15th, 2005 02:49 am (UTC)
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Well the good news is that apparently Vince Lepore voted for your reinstatement.

I'm sure you'll rest better this evening.
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From:[info]walterzuey
Date: November 15th, 2005 06:59 am (UTC)

sadly,

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his vote was just barely cancelled out by smoothcall's.
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From:[info]mosch2000
Date: November 15th, 2005 03:48 am (UTC)

The 80/20 ratio is a little skewed.

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I voted for your continued bannination on the basis that S&M should be forced to man up, and admit that they are guilty of felony idiocy.*

*Not just for this offense, though it was particularly amusing.
From:[info]hu8mahoreo
Date: November 15th, 2005 05:16 am (UTC)

thanks Paul

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As one of the many 2+2ers who caused you to "leave" 2+2 for a few days, I love hearing your views about the moderators and their lack of moderating skillz. If nothing else you intimidate those who would like to think they are better than you. I'll miss both your entertainment posts about such things as calling out Dynasty's power mongering, as well as your knowledge of poker and what you could share with those with a lesser understanding. Keep up the blog, though. Always an enjoyable read for me.
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From:[info]ronebofh
Date: November 15th, 2005 05:27 am (UTC)
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Dear Mason & Mat: choke on my fuck(™ Warren Ellis).
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From:[info]epsteininspace
Date: November 15th, 2005 05:55 am (UTC)
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As I predicted privately, this whole shmear both here and at 2+2 has become less a debate on the relevant issues (which would take approximately five seconds) and more "my sycophants can beat up your sycophants".

As far as the ratio of words-used-to-merit-and-debatability-of-topic goes, this runs a close third to discussions of gay marriage and intelligent design.

Like I said before, I think you are correct, and you present a clearly stated and well thought out argument for your case here, but at the same time I'm surprised and slightly disappointed that you chose to even dignify the matter with further discussion. (although I must confess your post did alert me to the fact that I am woefully not up to snuff when it comes to my Animal House knowledge)

Also, I think you should fight Ed Miller in a steel cage. Think about the potential pay-per-view profits (and also think about regrowing the Jack Straus beard while you're at it - studies show the Grizzly Adams look in and of itself is so intimidating as to be worth 1.6 elbow drops, on average).
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From:[info]ooda_loop
Date: November 15th, 2005 07:48 am (UTC)
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If you can watch "springtime for hitler" in the producers and not piss yourself laughing then I question the development of your sense of humor.

That scene is hilarious, to be sure, but I can hold my urine after many hours of training at the poker table. If you can't, I question the development of your bladder. :)

I should mention that "and the rest of the hitler youth" is a movie reference...That movie should be on the mandatory memorization list.

OK, I'll bite, why does Animal House rate just 7.5/10 on IMDB.com? Talk about people needing to develop their sense of humor!

When I ban people you don't hear about it.

Most of the time. I found one the other day as I was working my way back through the archives. I'm sure you wonder if anyone ever goes back and reads them, but I find it helpful in reducing noise because it keeps me from asking questions that have already been answered. Not to mention greatly deepening my understanding of big-time tournament poker.
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From:[info]chumpjuice
Date: November 15th, 2005 01:04 pm (UTC)

It all seems like such a waste

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Im gonna preface this by saying I dont follow 2+2 much, and most of my understanding of the 2+2 politics comes from your blog.

There are problems with the 2+2 forums. You are one of the few people with the inclination to bring those problems to light, and the clout to do so. It seems like 2+2 could be what you want, isnt that worth putting some effort into?

You said that your first deletion would be your last, and your reason seems to be that you put too much effort into your posts to see them deleted. The actual post in question seems to just be saying that the people who disagree with you about the TOC are morons, and the site is being run by clowns. (Bootlicking: you are right on both counts, and it was written with your usual humor and flair. It would take me many hours to right something as good, but I can only imagine that you rattled it off in about a minute)

Given that M. Sklansky has said that the deletion was a mistake, and that the moderators are willing to go to dark and scary lengths to keep people like you posting there, isnt it worth another go? Again, my 2+2 knowledge is fuzzy, but I'm not sure that a problem with Malmuth necessitates a complete break from the forum.
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From:[info]extempore
Date: November 15th, 2005 04:56 pm (UTC)

Re: It all seems like such a waste

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isnt that worth putting some effort into?

If I felt like applying effort I'd start my own forum. As it stands I can get as much poker talk as I want right here. If you define more clearly what "effort" in a context where a guy like mason malmuth is all-powerful then you might see why I would prefer other activities.