Paul Phillips

I shouldn't even deem to answer strategy questions from Paul Phillips and I'm not a HU master (I play very little HU poker), but I'd say virtually never. Maybe when you have a huge chip lead, you know that your opponent will push with any two cards and you have an abysmal hand.

However, Paul, I don't know if you read the poker community, but you should check it out today. Memorabilia of your favorite poker celebrity is featured.

(Reply) (Thread)

I ended up heads-up the other night and I started to wonder the exact same thing. It seems like raising is almost always the right play. Against many opponents, a raise will cause them to simply fold a large portion of the time. Should your opponent have a strong enough hand to re-raise you, it's easy enough to fold your trash. But should you receive a call, you're likely to be no worse than a 2/1 dog. If you hit the flop, your now in position (hopefully your opponent takes a stab).

It just seems to me that with heads-up play being as much of a crap shoot as it is anyways (at least with the quickly increasing blinds of online tourneys), any kind of strategy is a good one.

(Reply) (Thread)

Should your opponent have a strong enough hand to re-raise you, it's easy enough to fold your trash.

If you're raising 100% of your buttons you're going to get re-raised with nothing. A lot. What's trash? I wish I knew.

(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)

I never said 100%, obviously that wouldn't work against you against an opponent that was keen enough to catch on and do something about it. I suppose what I meant to say was that it was almost never wrong to raise. You should be comfortable raising with every hand, but obviously you would need to limp sometimes to keep your opponent guessing.

It goes without saying that it's never a good idea to show any kind of predictable pattern, like raising every time.

(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)

That is funny, a world class pro asking a poker question. But since you asked, I never fold a preflop button head to head. My strategy is virtually always the same aggressive method. I will call every time, raise with any paint, any pair, any suited connectors, always a 3x blind raise. If I hit anything on the flop, I usually bet the pot. I play extremely low limits, but this seems to work for me. If I get raised in almost any situation, I immediately give it up. I know it's important to mix it up a lot more at the higher levels to avoid traps and what not, but I'm not there yet, and I do mix it up a little bit, but I don't see the point of folding preflop when I am on the button, especially if playing against weak headsup players who will fold to a potsized bet on the flop if I just flopped a pair of threes. Hope I didn't embarrass myself too much, but at these lower levels most people can't handle my aggressiveness headsup, partly because I'm fairly tight at a full table.

(Reply) (Thread)

"That is funny, a world class pro asking a poker question..."

i am don't know why you should feel this way.

everyone has some chance of learning something valuable from anyone (especially in a well-read internet venue). sometimes the learner is a world-class pro and the teacher is the novice.
no one knows everything.
...and how do you think world-class pros get to be so good (and perhaps even more importantly, stay so good)?
they watch and learn, wherever they are, from whoever can teach them.

(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)

Paul, this place has moved from personal online journal to well-read internet venue! Congrats!

/joe

(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)

If you never fold, and you raise with any pair, paint, or suited connectors, then your opponent should be raising big every time you just call, since you are guaranteed to have complete garbage. Since you'll have to fold to these large raises, you'd be better off folding the hands you're currently calling with.

Unless you raise with every hand (which may well be the correct strategy), I think that you have to protect your garbage-hand calls by also calling with some of your best hands, so you can reraise if your opponent raises.

(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)

What you say makes 100% sense. My system is certainly flawed. Everything I have ever read about poker says that you need to mix it up, and occasionally need to limp with big cards, let alone adjust to your opponent. That said, I guess since my hands are not analyzed on ESPN, I can boast a high percentage of wins in my headsup games because my opponent hasn't figured it out yet. It is a very simple system that has actually worked well for me if I am lucky enough to make it to the final two.

(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)

it's a tournament
you have a trash hand (ex: 47o)
you're the shorter stack - not in desperation mode yet, but splashing around too carelessly could really put you in the hurt house.
your opponent has the momentum & has been coming over the top of your raises.
you suspect he'll do it again.
he'd most likely call an allin w/ just about any 2.
calling or raising only to fold to a raise from your opponent only adds to his momentum and gives him reason to continue his aggression.
just tossing the hand after only giving up the SB & moving on will probably be the thing LEAST likely to add fuel to his fire.

therefore, in this rare instance, I believe folding is the correct move.

that's my little opinion.
I've never won a WPT tournament & haven't logged nearly the hours at a table you have, so make what you will of that.

(Reply) (Thread)

next to never.

the few times i can think of:

1) when you have raised and been raised allin, you have a medium size stack that will be crippled if you call and lose, and you aren't pot-committed at this point.

2) occasionally you fold meekly without a raise one time cause you know your opponent will notice that and then will fold her button to you (many) more times, or your fold will cause your opponent to be much slower to notice that you never fold the button preflop.

(Reply) (Thread)

Heads-up NLHE is one of my favorite ways to play. I have never played for more than $30 per game, so the level of opponent hasn't been very high.

That said...

As the first action in the hand, I will fold three hands on the button in HU NLHE: 32o, 42o and 72o. Anything else is at least a call. Whether I see a flop is entirely based on my opponent's actions.

The point of the folding on these crap-for-EV hands is to let your opponent know that you DO have pre-flop standards for HU NLHE. While the three hands above won't come up that often, one or two pre-flop button folds per match really seem to get your opponent to respect your bets/raises more than they normally might.

I would call a 1xBB raise with anything I limped with (of course). I would typically call a 2.5xBB raise with 54o or better. Beyond 2.5xBB, my calling requirements go up quickly but raises larger than that seem rare.

There is much to discuss about how much of your stack you are calling off and how big the blinds are and what sort of extra information you have gained on the strength of your opponent's hand, but I think that is way beyond the scope of your question.

(Reply) (Thread)

I play a fair number of heads-up matches on stars, mostly at the $20 and $50 levels. I've run into your style a lot and I've always wondered 'what in the hell is he folding? It seems like he's folding... the bottom 2% of his hands... maybe?'

You're not fooling me into thinking you have useful standards by folding 3 hands. You're just making me laugh whenever you fold.

(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)

Like I said, the level of my opponents hasn't been very high. But you would be surprised how well the fold-every-now-and-then strategy works against weaker competition. Of course, it really depends on the opposition... something that is true for all of poker.

Anyway, why do you find it laughable that an opponent will fold the bottom 2% of hands on the button heads-up? Simply because of pot odds at that point of the action? I'd really like to hear your thoughts.

(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)

If you raise every button you end up reducing the information that a reraise (or even a call) from you opponent gives you. You would like to get him to play in a predictable way. Folding occasionally is one way to get him to think you are not itching to be in every hand. How that effects his play is your task to figure out :)

Additionally against many slightly sophisticated players (say the crowd up to and including the $100 HU crowd on stars) there is a point (usu. way to early) at which their tendency to just push preflop goes up. Knowing what this number is against a certain opponent is gold. It can keep you from giving away valuable chips on preflop raises when you can't call a jam. The funny thing is that for many opponents this "jam point" is preceded by a period of overly tight play ("gonna squeeze and get this sucker").

(Reply) (Thread)

I assume you mean first to act, SB on the button.

In SnGs, once heads-up I'll often fold the first weak hand, to give the impression that when I play it means I've got something. Being heads-up against someone who doesn't adjust is the sweetest plum. Happens more than you might think at buys in <= $30. You can be down 2:1 or worse and still know you'll almost certainly win, probably without ever showing down.

Here's a question, probably basic but one of the things I still need to learn:

Let's say you're at a full table. 1 to 3 limpers and you find a medium pair. Fine, you're supposed to raise it, so you do. Now you get an uncoordinated flop with 1 or 2 overcards. Checked to you. Is a bet automatic? If so, what's the plan when you get called and they check it back to you on the (unimproved) turn? I hate that spot. If you check, they'll probably put you to the test on the river. Again, uncoordinated flop with no glaring draws. I suppose it comes down to knowledge of oppopnents, and my tendancy to watch The Ultimate Fighter while playing probably costs me there.

(Reply) (Thread)

I almost went off into a discussion of my entire heads-up PF strategy but I decided to cut it and stick to topic. So to answer "When do you fold the button preflop heads up":

When stacks are deep and you have two total rags. (I suppose that provokes the question of "What counts as total rags heads up?" I'd say nine-high and lower completely unconnected and unsuited-- 94 or possibly 95-- although if I was looking for a reason to fold I'd get rid of a bad ten too.)

If you don't want to have to guess if your trash making bottom pair is any good.

If you need to buy a little credibility for folding the button. I agree with the posters who say that even one or two button folds during a heads-up match will get your raises much more respect and will encourage your opponent to fold his button much more frequently.

But for all this to apply stacks have to be deep enough that losing a round of blinds is negligible. (Exception: it's gotten to push-or-fold point and your hand is SO bad that you'd rather give away the blind than double up your opponent easily.)

Just from my limited experience.

(Reply) (Thread)

The likelihood I will fold really bad hands pre-flop on the button is proportional to the likelihood of getting raised. Some opponents never raise, or never raise out of position, or never raise when the blinds are relatively low, or when they have a substantial lead (I'm sure there are other situations as well). In this case I will call with anything, except for the occasional release of bad hands for the reason d14n gave.

I think heads up the higher the high cards, the better, e.g., I like 7-2 better than 4-5. Against only one opponent it is unlikely that you will get paid off with a straight, so hands like 4-5 lose much of their value on that front (unless you're up against a poor player who will routinely call raises with mediocre hands post-flop). I value hands like 4-5 slightly higher in raised pots because your opponent will feel more comitted and it will therefore be more likely that you will win a large pot with a straight (also, very few opponents will put you on those types of hands if you raise preflop or call a raise).

(Reply) (Thread)

I don't see the harm in folding at least the worst 10-15% of your hands. Every now and then you fold and your opponent finds a big hand - very frustrating for him.

Andy.

(Reply) (Thread)

at the last (and the first) online multi i won i was dealt AA, TT, and 99 during heads up play in the big blind. each time my opponent folded preflop.

speaking of 'very frustrating'.

(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)

I play a fair amount of 50-100 NLHE HU sits.

In LHE I almost never fold. In NLHE if my opponent is often raising and reraising I will tighten up. I'm not going to be limping my complete garbage (27o, 28o, J2o).

Basically the amount of control of my opponent disctates how many hands I will play. I don't think there is anything wrong with folding complete garbage against a fantastic opponent. Basically I am playing 90+% of my hands preflop against a horrible player who will check and fold to a flop bet if he didn't flop anything. Against a great aggressive player I may drop to as low as 80%.

Also, something interesting that I learned a while ago is that a lot of great players arent raising with A rag heads up. I used to think this was an automatic play, but after talking with Daniel Negreanu (after his A7 deeb hand) it just doesnt play well post flop, so I often like to limp now.

If I limp with trash and get raised, do I really wanna take a flop where my opponent is likely to bet into me when I have nothing and even if I outflop him I wont know it, then maybe its time to cut my losses and sacrifice my blind.

That said, you are Paul Phillips and I am some punk kid from Mpls.

(Reply) (Thread)

"...That said, you are Paul Phillips and I am some punk kid from Mpls."

hey, don't be so quick to knock your self. some of us can remember when PP was some...uh....kid from Cali....smile

c'mon Paul, you know i love you like my own brother....grin

(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)

I read the same comment by DN, Mojolang. What is the reason for not raising A7-like hands? I thought the theory was these hands are GREAT HU hands because ace high often wins unimproved, it a is a fair bluffcatcher and if you pair your ace your opponet will have to hit the flop twice or end up wit a draw. I'm curious. Spielmacher

(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)

I read the same comment by DN, Mojolang. What is the reason for not raising A7-like hands? I thought the theory was these hands are GREAT HU hands because ace high often wins unimproved, it a is a fair bluffcatcher and if you pair your ace your opponet will have to hit the flop twice or end up wit a draw. I'm curious. Spielmacher

Basically the idea is this. If you raise with an ace and get called, you may well be behind. Plus one of the most common raising hands includes an ace, and if you do flop the ace, you won't get paid off by a worse hand anyway. But, if you flop one and didnt raise, how can he put you on an ace? You didn't raise ;-)! So basically, you are looking to

1) Keep the pot small with a marginal hand thereby magnifying your opponents mistakes
2) Looking at a flop with the best hand, in position (hey that sounds pretty good)
3) Maintaining a good level of deception

"So, with the Ahearts 7diamonds, I went ahead and limped in from the button. I find it kind of humorous when some poker commentators are so shocked when a player doesn’t raise with an ace: “He’s just limping in! Wow, how unorthodox.” The truth is, most of the great players will often limp in with ace-rag hands rather than raise. Why? Well, because a hand like A-6 offsuit just doesn’t play well after the flop. When you hit your ace, you get action only when you’re beat, and if you miss the flop and get called — well, then you are kind of in a mess, too."

Peace,

Joe

(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)

The main reason for not raising Ace-rag all the time is that opponents generally put you on ace-rag when you raise heads up...they will fold most flops with an ace and play with you if not, which puts you in a lot of tough situations when you have to decide to fold or call down.

If you limp...you will get played with when you catch an ace. You won't get played with as often on rag flops.

Limping with ace-rag also lets you limp with other hands and not automatically get raised. It gives your limps some substance.

Of course, as with all poker advice, this is not absolute - you want to do some raising with ace-rag heads up, maybe 30-35% of the time. But the hand does indeed play far better if you limp.

Oh, and by the way Paul, it must be the beard.

Will

(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)

The way I see it, a HU NLHE match is sort of a negotiation. You get your opponent to establish his basic response to your raise preflop (or various sizes of raise) and your limp. Based on those responses, you know which hands you can fold. There are players who are unlikely to let you limp and who call or reraise a lot of preflop raises; against them, you can and should fold a lot especially if stacks are short. Sometimes this is so extreme that the only hands you would limp with would be limp/reraises or slowplay traps with big pairs and big aces until they change strategies. Of course, if they raise rarely enough you can limp with any two. An odd note I've found is that you should fold more hands preflop if your opponent is going to fold too often preflop - it makes him fold even more either because you're telling him he is correct to do so or because he gives your bets respect. Play fold or raise with a standard 3xBB (or whatever causes him to overfold) until he realizes you're eating him alive and 'give him his fair share' knowing it's not enough to live on.

One odd strategy I tried with some success at Stars in heads-up is the automatic blind minraise on the button. The button is a huge edge, so you're building pots when you have it while not letting them see any flops for free and giving away no information.

(Reply) (Thread)

thezvi's post is a lot like the one I was writing in my head as I read this thread, so I wont rehash all of it.

I used to play a lot of $20-$50 NLHE HU matches on Stars. I did generally use the automatic min-raise strategy on pretty much every hand I had in the early going. This has the advatage of disguising your hand, but the disadvantage of preventing you from getting information from your opponent based on their reaction. Not to mention, the more savvy players will start raising back a lot. Ultimately I think it's a decent strategy against an unsophisticated opponent.

My strategy now is that I like to fold a lot less than my opponent. If he is folding 20% of the time, I may fold as much as 10%. It keeps him folding and makes him comfortable pushing free chips to me. That being said, because of position, I still don't like calling on the button. I try to vary my play between the occasional fold, the min raise and the 3x BB raise and I'll try to do all three with a wide variety of holdings. If it's been a long match, I'll occasionally throw in a call just because it really screws with someone's head when you haven't done it and suddenly do.

Lastly, I do like the fold very occasionally for two reasons: 1. an early fold, as many have said, makes an opponent feel like it's ok for him to fold his button as well. 2. Now and then you fold a real garbage hand into a monster and that is as good as putting a bad beat on someone, and you've saved chips in the process.

(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)

Occasionally, I like to fold junk on the button for two or more hands in a row, if the blinds and chipstacks dictate that I can afford some time.

Why? I've had success in lulling an opponent into over-aggressive play with the intent of trapping him on a big hand.

I'll even limp and fold to a raise just to set up a false table image for my opponent. They often get overconfident, and inevitably bully too much with weaker hands. They get used to winning the blinds for a bit but often will lose a large pot.

Then you can change gears and begin stealing their blinds.

(Reply) (Thread)

I posted a quite lengthy reply (which I didn't feel was appropriate to post as a comment) to this message in my livejournal here.

(Reply) (Thread)

I strongly disagree with the posters that state to (virtually) never fold your small-blind button in no limit. Depending on how your opponent plays you should be folding anywhere from very often to very seldom.

There are too many scenarios to treat heads-up play in the blinds exhaustively, but I'll share my views in one or two of them. One rule stands out: the shallower the stacks compared to the blinds, the more often you should fold IF YOU THINK YOU ARE THE BETTER PLAYER and can identify weaknesses in your opponents play.

This goes against the rationale that the bigger bite the blind takes take out of your stack, the looser you should defend it. You gotta pick your fights carefully if the bout may not last longer than one round. This rule ofcourse goes out the window if the stacks involved are ridiculously small, like two, three or even ten big blinds and if the other guy is severely shortstacked. Deeper stacks generally have more room for maneuvering.

Five variables come into play when deciding how to play your small blind button: stack deepness, aggression of opponent, his reaction to (counter)aggression, how loose will he call (i.e. how bluffable is he and how far can you stretch your value bets), and how often will he bluff.

First you need to establish in what area of the battleground you will try to beat your opponent, barring a big hand crippling either him or you. One of the most effective methods for winning a heads-up match is establishing psychological dominance by outbetting the other guy and getting him to tilt. This plan of attack is more effective at limit play or requires deeper stacks in no limit than the most common scenario provides, that of heads-up final table tournament play.

In tournaments the overriding factor is the relative shallowness of stacks. Players rarely have more than 40-50 big blinds (except in the big tournaments) and often less. Establishing dominance will now often not work due to lack of large ammunition depots. In shortstack play you need to decide where you think you will have a significant edge over your opponent. In many situations virtually never folding your small blind button may be correct. You mostly raise and ocasionally limp. If your opponent however is an overly loose caller and (semi-)aggressive as well, raising 5 or 10 percent of your stack every other hand might not be correct. With your preflop raises you want to steal the blind a significant percentage of the time. If your opponent does not let you do this, you should be raisng for other reasons, basically having him call a raise with a hand that is a big dog. In other hands that you limp or fold.

If you decide that you stand a good chance of getting a big chunk of the other guy's stack by calling down his (semi)bluffs because he is over-aggressive as long as you don't bark back at him, you don't want to lose a lot of medium size pots with hands that probably will not be able to take heat on the flop and turn.

This translates into a strategy where you don't want to make a lot of preflop raises from the small blind button. You will be doing this mostly with fairly strong hands. If the other guy does not raise as a near standard play if you limp, you will be limping more hands, and probably with your very strong hands too. The rest of the hands you should be folding and will be doing so correctly.

Against opponents that are on the LAG-side your best chance of beating them is often from the small blind! Their play neutralizes some of the disadvantages of being under the gun. You have a bigger 'stealth factor' for your strong hands and are basically playing the button when it matters most: preflop and on the flop. But this goes beyond the matter in discussion here. What I discussed mostly is play against a loosish opponent. Against a player that is more conservative in defending his big blind, you will (ofcourse) be raising a lot more often.

Ergo: how you play your small blind largely depends on how the other guy plays his big blind. But it definitely is not incorrect per se to be folding your small blind, sometimes even fairly often. Spielmacher

(Reply) (Thread)

Blinds are 50-100, you have 2075 in chips they have 325, and you have 32o.

With both players having deep stacks, I'm sure that for some players it's correct to never fold (Although I will fold sometimes, but I'm not one of the best players in the world). I don't think I'll ever catch Phil Ivey fold his SB with deep stacks.

(Reply) (Thread)

Im sorry I dont know how to edit it, but when I typed 32 offsuit it looks remarkably like the number 320.

(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)

I read a piece by your sister in a recent edition of New in Chess on Sonia Graf I believe it was. Look me up on ICC if you're around, my handle is Haller. Funny how often chess and poker seem to mix. I'm a FIDE 2100-player, but spend most of my 'gametime' on poker lately. Later, Spielmacher.

(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)

I'm not much of a heads-up player, but the people at shipitpoker.com have a nice guide for heads-up play. I've personally learned quite a bit from it.

(Reply) (Thread)

Paul, I'm no pro but love playing heads-up online. I think you're talking about the $100 HU match yesterd on full-tilt. I just happened to be lurking in the woodwork.

As a general rule in a HU match pre-flop when on button 75% raise 15% call and 10% fold. Regardless of your hole cards.

My heads-up play used to go through big swings before I started using that formula which one of the other pros on full-tilt suggested that strategy. It was either Phil Gordon or Howard Lederer not sure which.

Now when up against someone who uses that same strategy you have to adjust.

But as a pro I think you knew that already. :)

(Reply) (Thread)

HU, more than anything, completely depends on the opponent. Will he fold a lot to your raises PF? If so, then raise a lot. It completely depends on how his style of play and how quickly he adapts to you. Try playing some $50 HU SNG's on Stars. I play those for fun when I'm bored. A lot of them are tards but you'll find a couple thinking opponents.

I would think you, of all people, would be very good at HU. I don't think HU play has much to do with your poker skill. It's more about your natural intelligence, how quickly you can understand their thinking and how quickly you can adapt to their play.

Personally, I try to find the optimal amount to raise and raise that much every time PF. 2.5x BB usually works pretty well. If they fold to minraises, then I start minraising every single time. If they start reraising, then good! I call and take a flop. I have more information than they do and am in a better position. The only thing they know is that I have two cards. Unless they're reraising every time, (which if they are, better for you! Punish them with your strong hands) you know their hand is above average.

(Reply) (Thread)

basically, no.

the only times I'll fold the button preflop are after my opponent has been folding a lot of his buttons, and I want to give him the impression I actually care what I have preflop. I'll usually do it with the exact hand 7-2, but only as a reminder to make my opponent feel comfortable. Maybe I'll say, "man, we aren't getting anything!" too.

(Reply) (Thread)

When you need to show that you are not just raising with everything. That you are playing cards worth it. Easier to mask your bluffs that way. If you raise everything, you are not quite sure which hand he will call you on. If you fold some, he has to consider whether you how good hand a hand you have, not if you have a hand.

I guess it depends on you opponent. You go against someone who always goes over top of you, you get too committed to marginal hands.

(Reply) (Thread)

I wonder if this is an area where a good simulation could be written, so it's possible to test strategies against each other and the field, a la the Prisoner's Dillemma tournament?

(Reply) (Thread)