I attempted to reconstruct the chip counts before hand #117 from the cardplayer live update archive. I came up with the following chip counts. The blinds were 200K-400K with a 40K ante. Because the available information is neither entirely precise nor entirely consistent I had to occasionally perform minor rounding to keep the chip total at $22.6M.
| Hasan: | 11.3M |
| Maxfield: | 9.3M |
| Tuan: | 2.0M |
Now Hasan posts the 400K BB, Maxfield the 200K SB, and each antes 40K.
There are three scenarios after Tuan moves all-in. The EV column is their expected win considering only the money in the top two spots; since they have each already locked up third place money, they are now playing a new tournament paying $0 for third.
| Case | Hasan Chips | Maxfield Chips | Tuan Chips | Hasan EV | Maxfield EV | Tuan EV |
| Hasan folds | 10.8M | 9.1M | 2.7M | $1.25M | $1.13M | $386K |
| Hasan calls and wins | 13.5M | 9.1M | 0 | $1.49M | $1.27M | $0 |
| Hasan calls and loses | 9.2M | 9.1M | 4.3M | $1.09M | $1.09M | $581K |
If Hasan's probability of winning when calling with KJs is P(w) then the EV of calling is equal to that of folding when:
1.49M * P(w) + 1.09M * (1 - P(w)) = 1.25M
Solving for P(w) yields 40% exactly.
So Hasan should call if KJs is better than 40% to win against the hand range he gives Tuan. Here are a few example hand ranges and how KJs fares against them. Keep in mind as you estimate Tuan's range that he had fewer than five big blinds and was outchipped nearly 5-1 by both other players, so he had virtually no chance of sneaking up a spot. He had to play a hand, and this one was his last realistic shot at moving in without being called. If he folds, next hand he will have to post nearly 25% of his chips in the big blind.
| Hand Range | KJs Win % |
| AA-66, AK-A7, KQ-KJ | 40% |
| All hands favored over KJs and no others (Ax, AA-55, KQ) | 41.4% |
| Any ace and any pair | 42.6% |
| One man's guess (the hands in yellow) | 56% |
| Any two cards | 62.6% |
So for Hasan to fold if his EV = EV(Hasan), he has to grant Tuan an extremely small range of strong hands.
Now look at Maxfield's EV in the three scenarios. If Hasan calls and wins he earns $140,000 compared to Hasan folding; if Hasan calls and loses he loses $40,000. That means Maxfield wants Hasan to call if he has even a 22% chance of winning.
If Hasan has more than a 22% chance of winning and folds, EV(Maxfield) suffers, and suffers more the higher the percentage goes. If Hasan has more than a 40% chance of winning and folds, EV(Hasan) suffers as well as EV(Maxfield).
SO WHAT'S THE POINT?
The point is that if everyone is self-interested, Hasan has to call when P(w) > 40% or he is losing money. But if he is getting an EV rebate thanks to owning part of Tuan, then he is not hurt nearly as badly as P(w) grows past 40%, while Maxfield IS hurt just as badly.
Correct play is altered even more dramatically if Hasan has less than 100% of himself while having 50% of Tuan. This is not at all unusual because of backing arrangements. If Hasan has only 35% of himself but 50% of Tuan, when should he call with KJs? Three guesses.
NOTES
I calculated tournament EV using a formula from this rgp thread which was simple enough not to discourage me from doing this while adequately reflecting my understanding of tournament EV.
Three players (a, b, and c) remain in a tournament, with chip counts of Ca, Cb, and Cc, where T = Ca+Cb+Cc. The probability of player a finishing in each spot are estimated as follows:
P(a1) = Ca / T
P(a2) = P(a2/b1) * P(b1) + P(a2/c1) * P(c1)
P(a3) = 1 - P(a2) - P(a1)
where P(a2/b1) = Ca / (T - Cb)
and P(a2/c1) = Ca / (T - Cc)
Similar calculations apply to the other two players. The value of finishing in each spot was as follows:
V(1) = $1,959,775
V(2) = $802,015
V(3) = $0
I used this openoffice spreadsheet to do the calculations. This is the very first spreadsheet I've made in my entire life so I'm sure there were more elegant ways to do it. If you manipulate the values in B2-B4 you will see their tournament EV recalculated on the fly.
With this many calculations it's always possible I've made an error somewhere so I'd be glad to hear about it if anyone finds one.
I'm going to police the comments on this one to keep it readable; there is too much noise lately and this isn't a good place for basic questions. If your comment disappears, that's why.
April 30 2005, 03:08:47 UTC 7 years ago
I'm just wondering if you're putting too much emphasis on maths in a situation that could've been overridden by instinct?
April 30 2005, 03:10:55 UTC 7 years ago
And in real life 99.9% of players err on the side of calling here, not on the side of folding. "Reads" are mostly an illusion in this spot. The only "read" you have is what tuan would move in with, and the answer is almost everything.
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April 30 2005, 03:39:39 UTC 7 years ago
why show at all?
Why do you even show at all if you are Hasan? If he had mucked he could have 27o for all we know and this entire ordeal would have been avoided. If he really had a big piece of him (which I'm not saying he didn't) why would he do something like that? Just doesn't make any sense, and hasn't really been addressed at all.Tad
April 30 2005, 04:23:10 UTC 7 years ago
Re: why show at all?
Why not show? their hole cards are being filmed anyway. Though you might assume that WPT wouldn't show that hand because of it's controversy. Not to be a conspiracy theorist, or anything..7 years ago
April 30 2005, 04:55:19 UTC 7 years ago
A read?
Is it possible that Habib had a read on Le that gave away the strength of his hand? (This would obviously involve Habib believing it's a monster) I've seen the possible scenarios but this one hasn't been discussed. Just wondering what your thoughts were.April 30 2005, 05:07:20 UTC 7 years ago
Re: A read?
Um check back a few days, Paul addresses the idea of "having a read" as being ridiculous in that situation, that instead you could only make your decision based on chip amount, and likely RANGE of hands... There's no way Hasan can put Le, of all people, on having only the type of hands that kills KJ, IE AK AJ AA KK QQ JJ KQ... "having a read" is just absurd.. Ask yourself which is more likely, He "Had a read" on one of the loosest, most aggressive players around, who is also horribly short stacked, or is he softplaying a player he has 50% in... I'd handicap this one about 1% chance of having a read7 years ago
April 30 2005, 05:28:05 UTC 7 years ago
Poker Control Comission
Although it's probably not feasible, the only solution I could formulate would be some sort of regulatory body to investigate these kinds of instances. Since softplaying and less-than-ethical behavior creates a +EV situation, it seems that only the threat of -EV consequences (say, getting banned from WPT-events for x-period of time for y-infraction) would discourage people from cheating.There are a lot of reasons that this idea would be very hard to realize, but if poker's image and integrity are threatened by the appearance of cheating, perhaps a Poker Regulatory Commission of some sort would impel everyone to keep things on the up-and-up.
Shane
April 30 2005, 06:23:34 UTC 7 years ago
Re: Poker Control Comission
WPT isn't the only game in town. There are cash games everywhere, tournaments everywhere, the PPT, and other, lesser known tournament tours. A WPT ban for X amount of days isn't likely to deter many people IMO.7 years ago
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April 30 2005, 07:12:53 UTC 7 years ago
EV calculation
Having calculated the EV values independently I come up with the same results.I have a piece of freeware available on my website which does this calculation for up to 9 players. Let me know if you'd like a copy or if I can post a link here. It is useful on occasion.
Andy.
April 30 2005, 07:57:48 UTC 7 years ago
Re: EV calculation
Please do. Brute forcing the simplest case was kind of fun this once, but having done that I'm ready to bring on the robot armies.7 years ago
April 30 2005, 09:00:04 UTC 7 years ago
What should the WPT do?
I guess the biggest problem that I see with things like this happening so publicly is giving online players more of a reason to favor collusion. I mean, if it comes down to keeping a certain level of integrity in the sport intact, would it not be in the best interest of the WPT to not show the filming of hands 43 and 117 if they truely believe that there is some kind of teaming behind it? or is it better to show them and explain that there was a thought of this happening and hopedully get the TV watching crowd to understand that this problem in poker is highly unethical an fully address it?April 30 2005, 09:13:39 UTC 7 years ago
Re: What should the WPT do?
In a million, billion years you're never going to hear talk of collusion or softplaying on a WPT broadcast. That's crazy talk.The WPT has the exact same interest as the casinos; to keep any talk of impropriety as quiet as possible.
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April 30 2005, 09:56:57 UTC 7 years ago
The KJs hand
Whilst I agree that it is a very 'strange' fold, I cannot help feeling that the fact that Hasan showed the hand suggests that everything was above board.Having said that, I would call in my sleep with KJs !
April 30 2005, 13:01:08 UTC 7 years ago
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April 30 2005, 15:58:17 UTC 7 years ago
Think of what would happen.....
If by some strange miracle, two of the final three players at the main event this year were "Full Tilt" qualifiers. You're telling me they don't have some motivation to team up on the other guy? Knowing that if one of them won, they would be ten million dollars richer (plus their winnings), I think they would have some serious motivation.April 30 2005, 17:56:59 UTC 7 years ago
Re: Think of what would happen.....
It's even worse than that; the third guy has huge motivation to throw the match in exchange for a share of the millions. A full tilt qualifier who approaches the end can throw around millions to others to help him win. It's like a ten million dollar bribing bag.April 30 2005, 18:21:15 UTC 7 years ago
GCA agrees with you
Russ Georgiev goes farther than wondering about soft playing - he flat out accuses them of collusion. He insults their collusion ability in another thread, but I'd say the results were impressive enough, so...Speaking of Russ, he's got an opinion on this: "Because the available information is neither entirely precise nor entirely consistent I had to occasionally perform minor rounding to keep the chip total at $22.6M."
He claims that tourny chip counts are never correct and there is a thriving hidden chip exchange going on in most tournaments. I know that is off-topic from the soft playing / trading ownership discussion, but what's your take on that? Have you seen this, or suspected it?
April 30 2005, 18:44:18 UTC 7 years ago
Re: GCA agrees with you
How can you tell russ is lying? His lips are moving.I see he's invoking my name to try to sap my credibility. What a douche. If russ says something is true I default to assuming the opposite.
Because the available information is neither entirely precise nor entirely consistent
...because the chip counts on the public web sites are eyeball estimates taken in the heat of battle, not because there are extra chips. I verified the official chip count of the final six and it is exactly correct taking into account small chip race roundup.
Have you seen this, or suspected it?
No and no. Never seen or suspected anything remotely like that.
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April 30 2005, 23:56:56 UTC 7 years ago
Daniel wrote about this concept here:
http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-f
Daniel's example involves a more extreme chip lead, but maybe it could apply here?
May 1 2005, 00:05:09 UTC 7 years ago
May 1 2005, 01:50:37 UTC 7 years ago
Paul, what do you think of Negraneu's point...
that their play on other hands isn't consistent with collusion/softplay?http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-f
May 1 2005, 02:07:54 UTC 7 years ago
Re: Paul, what do you think of Negraneu's point...
Fallacy of relevance. Once again, I'm not trying to make any kind of case that there was collusion/softplay. I'm just trying to clearly show that hasan's best play changes if he owns some of tuan, to the detriment of maxfield. I do not care to speculate as to why he folded the hand. What he did on other hands is immaterial, regardless.7 years ago
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May 1 2005, 07:52:04 UTC 7 years ago
Paul, I'm sorry if....
My linking Negraneu's post drug you into a flame war on fullcontactpoker.com. Wasn't my intention to add to your ibuprofen expense.May 1 2005, 18:17:45 UTC 7 years ago
Re: Paul, I'm sorry if....
There were flame wars long before you linked him there buddy.May 2 2005, 00:22:44 UTC 7 years ago
What To Do?
[I know this won't work, but I'm not accusing the WPT, Hasan Habib, Tuan Le, Mother Teresa, Robert Blake, Ken Lay or anyone else of anything.]The WPT is an Entertainment product. If the producers of the WPT thought that marked decks or hand-signals would double their ratings, what would they do? Anyone seen "Quiz Show"?
Was anyone shocked that CBS and the NBA never pushed referees to enforce the traveling rules against Doctor J or James Worthy? Or that MLB and the networks have never devised a method to detect corked bats? or steroid use until 2005? What do you think happened to that guy at MLB headquarters who suggested in 1998 that they check Sosa's bats or test McGwire for steroids? You know, gambling on baseball breaks cardinal rule #1 and they've done a lot to enforce it -- they did catch one guy.
What would cause the WPT/WSOP/etc. to address this problem? In order of importance:
1. Ratings go down
2. Congress holds hearings
5. Players, especially top players, organize and demand fair rules
10,000. WPT producers think something is unfair or cheating
Remember: baseball was like the wild-west until the owners brought in sheriff Landis to save the game after the Black Sox scandal.
The problem is similar with internet poker. If 50% of online customers withdrew our money and demanded more stringent, independently verified security and anti-cheating procedures (and lower rakes), we'd see a lot of changes.
How to regulate tournament poker?
I won't pretend to be an expert but I'll suggest 2 methods of regulation:
1. Regulate play. Obvious situations can certainly be regulated. If Hasan had folded KK, there would be little argument. But even in the actual hand, where Hasan's fold was wrong, does anyone propose to penalize a player for making that play in that situation?
Regulating play would be easier to enforce, because all the objective information is available (I think subjective regulation is all but impossible), but standards will be harder to devise.
2. Regulate player relationships. Is buying a percentage of another player akin to Pete Rose betting on baseball? Don't allow players to sell more than a certain percentage of themselves. Some players won't like this and players have a legitimate interest to control variance. Maybe make players choose: you can either gamble on/invest in other players or play yourself? Active players could also blindly invest in the investor, like the President can blindly invest in the stock market. I realize these are flawed ideas, but I'd wager that more knowledgeable minds could construct creative solutions.
Regulating relationships would be harder to enforce, because cheaters could hide the objective information, but standards would be easier to establish and easier to follow. I imagine a one-year ban followed by a lifetime ban would discourage most. Plus, I believe most players are honest, so this approach is preferable.
May 2 2005, 14:30:33 UTC 7 years ago
This is really just a question, I'm not a tinfoil hat guy or anything, and, like you I'm not making any accusations about what may or may not have happened at major tournaments in the recent past.
I think it's been well established at this point that large financial interests between players could, at the very least, tempt those involved to play differently than if their goal was simply to win the tournament. Further, it follows that this sort of play could negatively impact the players who are not similarly engaged financially with someone else at the table. This impact could manifest purely because the other players know that a deal exists, even if nothing untoward is actually ocurring.
Taking it a step further and considering the money involved, are we headed towards active collusion at these events, possibly through signaling with chip shuffling or bet size? I realize that this would become painfully obvious if it was done several times at a final table, but I think it's clear that one big hand can swing millions from one player to another. Is there any fear that this is already happening?
Deleted comment
May 2 2005, 15:58:54 UTC 7 years ago
Re: What are the rules?
You may be unaware that this has already happened. There have been two "European Team Championships", both held in Russia I believe. National teams of I think 5 players played a "normal" tournament with points for finishing positions and they were allowed to play as a team. However, and this is the best bit, it all ended in tears when collusion between two separate teams caused a third team to call foul. Perhaps next time they should allow inter-team collusion (as distinct from intra-). Which would save anyone from trying to play any actual poker.If what you suggest came about, I'd switch to cash. Frankly I'm thinking about it anyway. And I think so would a lot of people who are attracted to poker _because_ it is such an individual pastime.
Andy.
May 4 2005, 20:28:37 UTC 7 years ago
Discouraging Dealmaking
I'll leave alone the topic of whether or not Le and Habib actually actively "colluded" in the tournament. I couldn't provide any insight to help prove it one way or another.Instead, I'll focus on actions that can be taken to prevent dealmaking in the future and therefore avoid any possible appearance of collusion between players in the first place.
There are comments by Chip Jett in the latest issue of Cardplayer magazine stating that he prefers flatter tournament payout structures because this would provide less incentive for players to cut deals. What do you think of this idea? This, combined with a "no deals" agreement by any player participating in a tournament, should help lessen the number of deals made between players.